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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
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2638 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Can I send your pictures, Phill? See post above. |
Sorry I missed that post. Yes help yourself mate. The bigger pics are on the myspace site. I have a load of stuff, Just let me know what you want if it's not there.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3395 posts
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Thanks, Phill. I'm sending one of Crown Court entrance, featuring the Corn Exchange (might get his interest!) two of the skulls (in original and new settings) one of the skull wall and one of the front of the former Crown and Fleece, along with a map.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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I'm also thinking of contacting Yorkshire Life and Yorkshire Ridings magazines (the wife reads 'em!)
They might be interested - it's all publicity!
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chameleon
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
Posted:
3608 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Something that's been puzzling me is the shot of the yard from 1925. If the pressgang story is true we would be looking over a 100+ years earlier, so they would have been many changes to the yard. I keep wondering why the skull building seems to be fenced in. Did this fence stop people going up the yard towards the Crown chip shop? I thought on old maps the passage was the right of way along that building. Does this tell us anything about ownership or the purpose of this building? Also would the building with the gas lamp on the wall be a house? It looks it. |
Small point, that five-foot plan I mentioned of 1850? Shows an additional 'extension' for want of a better word, in front of and the full length of the altered building to the left of the skulls , maybe a couple of feet wide.
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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18-Jan-2008 19:11:33
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651 posts
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I am working my way through a small aperback called "CRIMINAL LEEDS:from earliest records to 1879" published in 1985 and written by Stephen Burt. I thought it might mention press gangs and deserters etc. One interesting story in it is the The Military Riots of 1844. These happened after two soldiers were arrested for attacking and robbing a man who was drinking in "The Green man" pub in York Street. The soldiers comrades objected to the arrest and next day crowds of them gathered in the "green Parrot" carrying bludgeons. Around 40-50 soldiers then proceeded to attack every policeman they could find in around kirkgate, Briggate and Commercial St. Police ran for cover watched by crowds apparently. The police dived into alleys,houses etc to get away in some cases unsuccessfully.6 policemen were badly wounded and 14 soldiers & 9 civilians arrested.
So yet another military connection with kirkgate!
the full story was written up at the time so I might look it up when we go to the library it sounds fascinating reading and i wonder whether "The Crown " might feature as well?
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Well I spent about an hour and half trawling through the old Leeds book in the library today. I saw everything from the plague, the luddites to the Boer war. No sign of the Crown and Fleece or anything relevant except a crystal clear map of 1815, Unfortunately it hasn't scanned as good as the original. I'll still put it up. I did read again about the Press gang activity in Leeds in 1780 been pretty bad, During the Peninsula war it seemed to say the need for press gangs diminished (maybe the level of persuasion was less 'Persuasive') volunteer army units had been set up to deal with the demand for men. I've read this in two publications now.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
I've managed to find an address for Dan Cruickshank. It might be worth a punt - you never know. No turn unstoned.
Phill, can I have your permission to send him some of your pics to illustrate the story, please? |
Well i think Mr Cruickshank may be more interested than our local institutions.
Ive not recieved a second reply as yet from the YAS,which i thought i would have by now,so perhaps if they are not interested in providing the necessary help then perhaps we should look elsewhere.
When we had our productive little tour the other day someone jokingly said "what about Tony Robinson and Time Team helping out",well perhaps thats not a bad idea.
Now before some people reading these posts(the Cruickshank mention as well) starts rolling their eyes you have to remember that there is only so far that we can go with this before we need professional help.
Thanks to Si we can get the skulls removed.
But we need to look at financing this,it will not be free.
Might not be a lot of money in the grand scale of things but it will be a cost none the less.
When it happens the whole job will need to be looked at by various experts,we wont be able to turn up and chisel them out,we will need skilled craftsmen to remove them and we will need people with connections to facilitate this.
We hav etried the YAS,and unless their processes are very slow then it doesnt look good for their support.
We have not approached the Civic trust in the correct manner as yet,but they are not archaeologists and it is these persons we will probably need.
So in my book Si ,go for it!!
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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18-Jan-2008 19:11:33
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I know Dave Wheldrake who is the education officer for the West Yorkshire Archaeological Society.
I will draw his attention to this thread.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Steve Jones wrote: |
I know Dave Wheldrake who is the education officer for the West Yorkshire Archaeological Society.
I will draw his attention to this thread. |
Oh please do Steve,please!!
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Does the street name from Assembly court to Crown street at a later date help us searching stuff and records out Chris?
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cnosni
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Phill_d
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I did say the recruitment tactics later employed were maybe 'less persuasive' Chris. I take it the road not been called Crown Street in those days isn't relevant to any research?
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Does the street name from Assembly court to Crown street at a later date help us searching stuff and records out Chris? |
Yes mate it does.
we must have miised each other today at the library cause i had a dig an hour before work,so here goes.
1817 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,Call Lane Jacob Wilshire,Victualler.
1818 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,J Wilshire
1823 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,William Harrison.
1826 Directory
Crown Inn,John Ainley,3 Crown Street.
1834 Directory
Crown and Fleece,No 3 Crown Street,John Ainley.
So assembley Court became Crown Street between 1823 and 1826.
The Crown became the Crown and Fleece between 1826 and 1834.
1826 seems to be the pivotal year here,and John ainley is there in 1826 for both events.
BUT,the 1780,1797,1800 directories have no mention of the Crown,but neither do they have all the pubs in Leeds.
They do have "The Old Crown" in them,but for there hasto be an Old Crown,there must be a new one,so the lists in these old directories cannot be viewed as conclusive.
As Assembly Court became Crown Street,with an adjacent Crown Yard then the Crown/Crown and Fleece must have been popular/important to have had a street named after it.
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Geordie-exile
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Tyneside
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06-Feb-2008 22:39:43
Posted:
541 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| Does the street name from Assembly court to Crown street at a later date help us searching stuff and records out Chris? |
Yes mate it does.
we must have miised each other today at the library cause i had a dig an hour before work,so here goes.
1817 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,Call Lane Jacob Wilshire,Victualler.
1818 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,J Wilshire
1823 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,William Harrison.
1826 Directory
Crown Inn,John Ainley,3 Crown Street.
1834 Directory
Crown and Fleece,No 3 Crown Street,John Ainley.
So assembley Court became Crown Street between 1823 and 1826.
The Crown became the Crown and Fleece between 1826 and 1834.
BUT,the 1780,1797,1800 directories have no mention of the Crown,but neither do they have all the pubs in Leeds.
They do have "The Old Crown" in them,but for there to be an Old Crown,there must be a new one.
As Assembly Court became Crown Street,with an adjacent Crown Yard then the Crown/Crown and Fleece must have been popular/important to have had a street named after it.
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That should go in the resource thread cnosni. It's helpful to see the timeline set out like that.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| I did say the recruitment tactics later employed were maybe 'less persuasive' Chris. I take it the road not been called Crown Street in those days isn't relevant to any research? |
definitely less pursuasive because the press gangers had a parliamentary act to press any suitable male into the kings service (1779-1780),but it was so unpopular that when it came to a far more pressing political problem that the Napoleonic wars were to the country (as opposed to the American wars) the government would not employ press ganging,they went for the underhand approach,they played upon the masses of persons dispossesed by the Enclosure acts of the late 18th century,who found that the only way to survive (following the loss of their rented lands) was to go to the cities where there was work.
Our streets,along with all the big towns were full of people who had come from the countryside with no means to live,poverty was their only option.
A recruitment sergeant with some bread is like bait on a hook to a fish,and they bit.
Cruel times,not the good old days.
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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18-Jan-2008 19:11:33
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651 posts
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I assumed the pub was called "The Crown & Fleece" because of the weavers and cloth hall nearby. I did wonder though whether it might be an amalgamation of two pubs? was there a "Fleece" listed in earlier directories?
for instance The Old Red Lion of today on Marsh Lane opposite the Adelphi (more or less)is actually two pubs .The function room is the site of the pub that adjoined it (forget the name, its shown on early maps) which was swallowed up when it went bust and became part of the Red Lion.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Steve Jones wrote: |
I assumed the pub was called "The Crown & Fleece" because of the weavers and cloth hall nearby. I did wonder though whether it might be an amalgamation of two pubs? was there a "Fleece" listed in earlier directories?
for instance The Old Red Lion of today on Marsh Lane opposite the Adelphi (more or less)is actually two pubs .The function room is the site of the pub that adjoined it (forget the name, its shown on early maps) which was swallowed up when it went bust and became part of the Red Lion. |
No Fleece in any directories.
Drapesy thought that the Crown had expanded into a neighbouring clothing related premises,and considering the site of the Crown and Fleece would appear to be two seperate buildings then this would seem to be a distinct possibility.
1826 seems to be the pivotal year,its when John Ainley has moved in and Assembly Court has become Crown Street,though NOT Crown and Fleece Street,it was not the Crown and Fleece until at least 1834
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cnosni
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2685 posts
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| Geordie-exile wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| Does the street name from Assembly court to Crown street at a later date help us searching stuff and records out Chris? |
Yes mate it does.
we must have miised each other today at the library cause i had a dig an hour before work,so here goes.
1817 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,Call Lane Jacob Wilshire,Victualler.
1818 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,J Wilshire
1823 Directory
Crown Inn,Assembly Court,William Harrison.
1826 Directory
Crown Inn,John Ainley,3 Crown Street.
1834 Directory
Crown and Fleece,No 3 Crown Street,John Ainley.
So assembley Court became Crown Street between 1823 and 1826.
The Crown became the Crown and Fleece between 1826 and 1834.
BUT,the 1780,1797,1800 directories have no mention of the Crown,but neither do they have all the pubs in Leeds.
They do have "The Old Crown" in them,but for there to be an Old Crown,there must be a new one.
As Assembly Court became Crown Street,with an adjacent Crown Yard then the Crown/Crown and Fleece must have been popular/important to have had a street named after it.
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That should go in the resource thread cnosni. It's helpful to see the timeline set out like that. |
Ok mate,will do.
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Geordie-exile
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Steve Jones
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I have a copy of the Foul Deeds & Suspicous Deaths in Leeds sitting by my side here Geordie!
It is the other book I took out from the Leeds Library as possibly of interest.
No mention in it though of either crown, Crown & Fleece, or assembly Street. a very brief mention of Crown street in connection with a murder casebut only of someone visiting a house there.
Good book though has lots of pictures and maps.I haven't read it yet,just glanced at the index.
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Geordie-exile
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Tyneside
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06-Feb-2008 22:39:43
Posted:
541 posts
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| Steve Jones wrote: |
I have a copy of the Foul Deeds & Suspicous Deaths in Leeds sitting by my side here Geordie!
It is the other book I took out from the Leeds Library as possibly of interest.
No mention in it though of either crown, Crown & Fleece, or assembly Street. a very brief mention of Crown street in connection with a murder casebut only of someone visiting a house there.
Good book though has lots of pictures and maps.I haven't read it yet,just glanced at the index. |
Aw shame. 
But any information about Crown Street is grist to the mill I think.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Steve Jones wrote: |
I have a copy of the Foul Deeds & Suspicous Deaths in Leeds sitting by my side here Geordie!
It is the other book I took out from the Leeds Library as possibly of interest.
No mention in it though of either crown, Crown & Fleece, or assembly Street. a very brief mention of Crown street in connection with a murder casebut only of someone visiting a house there.
Good book though has lots of pictures and maps.I haven't read it yet,just glanced at the index. |
Bring it with you on the 11th please Steve.
By the way i did a quick (well very quick) recce today and the Leeds Mercury papers 1802-1807 are on 4 microfilms,so we may well get them done.
I have to say that im a little pertubed by the lack of relevant references to anything to do with our enquiries in this book ,but there has been no mention of murder with these two men as yet,so maybe they would not appear in this book.
Frankly im feeling that we may not find anything on this,everything until now seems quite negative on the story of the two men.
The physical and documentary evidence that we have seen does not support the story,the earliest written source is the YEP article in 1968.
However,verbal evidence in these times must be just as good so if we can identify a spoken source of this tale prior to 1968 then we will be getting a little closer.
LS1,can you go back to Dysons and see if you can pinpoint when the earlist source in their family is for this tale?
Ill help out on this if you like,its a bit FH and im pretty good at that.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Geordie-exile wrote: |
| Steve Jones wrote: |
I have a copy of the Foul Deeds & Suspicous Deaths in Leeds sitting by my side here Geordie!
It is the other book I took out from the Leeds Library as possibly of interest.
No mention in it though of either crown, Crown & Fleece, or assembly Street. a very brief mention of Crown street in connection with a murder casebut only of someone visiting a house there.
Good book though has lots of pictures and maps.I haven't read it yet,just glanced at the index. |
Aw shame.
But any information about Crown Street is grist to the mill I think. |
Geordie you are right,this whole area is of great interest,there is now even a thread to Kirkgate pubs thanks to that Drapesy fella.
i have been doing some digging into the Albert Firemark
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2145 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Steve Jones wrote: |
I assumed the pub was called "The Crown & Fleece" because of the weavers and cloth hall nearby. I did wonder though whether it might be an amalgamation of two pubs? was there a "Fleece" listed in earlier directories?
for instance The Old Red Lion of today on Marsh Lane opposite the Adelphi (more or less)is actually two pubs .The function room is the site of the pub that adjoined it (forget the name, its shown on early maps) which was swallowed up when it went bust and became part of the Red Lion. |
No Fleece in any directories.
Drapesy thought that the Crown had expanded into a neighbouring clothing related premises,and considering the site of the Crown and Fleece would appear to be two seperate buildings then this would seem to be a distinct possibility.
1826 seems to be the pivotal year,its when John Ainley has moved in and Assembly Court has become Crown Street,though NOT Crown and Fleece Street,it was not the Crown and Fleece until at least 1834
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No I didn't - that wasn't my theory(clothing related) and its not one I'd attach much credence to to be honest.
It would appear that the pub was originally 2 seperate buildings , as it is now, and my original thoughts were along the same lines as Steve Jones - that two pubs were turned into one, but that seems unlikely in the absence of any evidence about a 'Fleece' in its own right.
Why the pub changed its name in this way is a mystery, albeit a fascinating one!
I have read the theory that sometimes when two incongrous pub names are combined ( Such as the Angel and White Horse in Tadcaster) it signifies a time when a new owner took over but also wanted to keep the name of the pub he formerly owned to show his old customers where he was and to keep the link with his old premises - and so combined the two.
I've no idea if this theory is true or not.- But it must have been a help in avoiding confusion with the 'Old Crown' to call the pub by its newer, longer title.
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