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cnosni
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Location:
Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Mick_SGC wrote: |
Suffocated
Crown and Fleece
Army recruits
Hayloft
stable/s
tenters (as in Tenters garth)
skulls!!
army
crown street
crown inn
two men/died /dead/found dead
crimped
pressed
press ganged
change of heart/mind
kings shilling
kirkgate
asphyxiated
ammonia
straw / hay
imprest
ainley / stead / other landlords
recruits
conscripts
'king's'
Leeds Crown St Got 70 results instead of just Street which only got 5. |
Ok Mick,have you found anything relevant to the Crown and Fleece or any associated events?
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Phill_d
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Mick_SGC
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Chicago!!
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Stilll looking, but the mercury coverd a wide are and there's lots of crowns and fleces around....
There is a great prize being offerd for guess the the wheight of coffee though...
If there's anyhting of any relevance I'll post it. Im going down the coffin/undertaker route at the moment aswell. There also seems to be a lot of robbery reported around the area at the time. Mainly by press gangers I presume.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
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| Phill_d wrote: |
No I mean this yard here Chris. It's marked on all the maps apart from the 1815.
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The one where the red line ends?
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Phill_d
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Yes marked in red. There is a gate there now. On the old maps this is clearly a yard, but not in 1815 there wasn't. The 1815 map seems to suggest the building in the foreground with the rendered wall and chimney extended to were the hayloft is.
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cnosni
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| Phill_d wrote: |
No I mean this yard here Chris. It's marked on all the maps apart from the 1815. It's clearly 2 separate buildings.
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Phil we were stood in the yard when were right up against the skull building.
What you have to remember is the rest of the ginnel down one side,opposite the skull building,has gone.
Only the north side of the ginnel remains.
So if yo can imagine yourself with your back to the skulls,and facing you,running paralell,was another range of buildings which made the other side of the ginnel and created the yard.
Does that make sense?
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cnosni
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Leeds
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Posted:
2685 posts
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| Mick_SGC wrote: |
Stilll looking, but the mercury coverd a wide are and there's lots of crowns and fleces around....
There is a great prize being offerd for guess the the wheight of coffee though...
If there's anyhting of any relevance I'll post it. Im going down the coffin/undertaker route at the moment aswell. There also seems to be a lot of robbery reported around the area at the time. Mainly by press gangers I presume. |
The press gangers were military,so i doubt it was them robbing.
See tghe bit of the newspaper from 1900 that i posted on the previous page.
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Brandy
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| cnosni wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Heres another entry - very interesting as it mentions a 'Brewhouse, Stables and other outbuildings'. The pub also seems to have been used for various meetings - such a s the 'Burgesses of Kirkgate Ward' |
Drapesy,do you still have the image on your documents for this newspaper article,if so then can you send it and ill try and crop the relevant bit and put it on the resource thread for the skulls.
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no but i have
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Phill_d
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Mick_SGC
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Chicago!!
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No really, I'll try find it again, they stole 40 watches!!
Not that it has any relvance anyway 
Onwards!!
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Brandy
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cnosni
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Posted:
2685 posts
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| Brandy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Heres another entry - very interesting as it mentions a 'Brewhouse, Stables and other outbuildings'. The pub also seems to have been used for various meetings - such a s the 'Burgesses of Kirkgate Ward' |
Drapesy,do you still have the image on your documents for this newspaper article,if so then can you send it and ill try and crop the relevant bit and put it on the resource thread for the skulls.
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no but i have,i dont know if you can read it though,it states that the crown&fleece is up 'to let' |
Cheers Brandy,hate to be a pain but do you have the date of the article?
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cnosni
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Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
No I mean this yard here Chris. It's marked on all the maps apart from the 1815. It's clearly 2 separate buildings.
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Phil we were stood in the yard when were right up against the skull building.
What you have to remember is the rest of the ginnel down one side,opposite the skull building,has gone.
Only the north side of the ginnel remains.
So if yo can imagine yourself with your back to the skulls,and facing you,running paralell,was another range of buildings which made the other side of the ginnel and created the yard.
Does that make sense? |
No mate it doesn't. It doesn't explain why this yard doesn't exist in 1815. |
With you now phil,will look at 1815 again
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
No I mean this yard here Chris. It's marked on all the maps apart from the 1815. It's clearly 2 separate buildings.
|
Phil we were stood in the yard when were right up against the skull building.
What you have to remember is the rest of the ginnel down one side,opposite the skull building,has gone.
Only the north side of the ginnel remains.
So if yo can imagine yourself with your back to the skulls,and facing you,running paralell,was another range of buildings which made the other side of the ginnel and created the yard.
Does that make sense? |
No mate it doesn't. It doesn't explain why this yard doesn't exist in 1815. |
With you now phil,will look at 1815 again |
No mate it doesnt explain the yards absence,all i can think of is that the area was clearly in a state of flux and that some very old buildings were cleared away after 1815 to eventually lead to the creation of a yard,thats all i can think of.
If you notice the white rendered building to the right of the Skull building appears to be an even older building,possibly contemporary to the Whit Cloth Hall.
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Brandy
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Location:
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21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1469 posts
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| Mick_SGC wrote: |
Stilll looking, but the mercury coverd a wide are and there's lots of crowns and fleces around....
There is a great prize being offerd for guess the the wheight of coffee though...
If there's anyhting of any relevance I'll post it. Im going down the coffin/undertaker route at the moment aswell. There also seems to be a lot of robbery reported around the area at the time. Mainly by press gangers I presume. |
ive already covered the coffin/undertaker bit mick, come to think of it last night and this morning i think ive read every copy of the mercury thats on the site mate lol?
the reason i think theres a lot of robbery around the area is that people used to travel to the crown&fleece from all over England!
they used to use it for important meetings as far as i have sussed out.
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cnosni
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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Brandy
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Location:
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1469 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Brandy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Heres another entry - very interesting as it mentions a 'Brewhouse, Stables and other outbuildings'. The pub also seems to have been used for various meetings - such a s the 'Burgesses of Kirkgate Ward' |
Drapesy,do you still have the image on your documents for this newspaper article,if so then can you send it and ill try and crop the relevant bit and put it on the resource thread for the skulls.
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no but i have,i dont know if you can read it though,it states that the crown&fleece is up 'to let' |
Cheers Brandy,hate to be a pain but do you have the date of the article? |
yes mate its Saturday, August 31, 1844
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Brandy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Brandy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Heres another entry - very interesting as it mentions a 'Brewhouse, Stables and other outbuildings'. The pub also seems to have been used for various meetings - such a s the 'Burgesses of Kirkgate Ward' |
Drapesy,do you still have the image on your documents for this newspaper article,if so then can you send it and ill try and crop the relevant bit and put it on the resource thread for the skulls.
|
no but i have,i dont know if you can read it though,it states that the crown&fleece is up 'to let' |
Cheers Brandy,hate to be a pain but do you have the date of the article? |
yes mate its Saturday, August 31, 1844 |
Cheers Pal
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Phill_d
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| The 1815 map says the building marked with the cross extended the whole way down to the angled corner were we now have the skulls. There was no yard and not 2 separate buildings. We have to decide if the building with the skulls was part of that original building. Did they alter it, add a yard and create 2 separate buildings? If not then the hayloft didn't exist in 1815. |
Thats my point Phil,perhaps the yard was created when something was demolished.
We need another look tommorrow mate.
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| The 1815 map says the building marked with the cross extended the whole way down to the angled corner were we now have the skulls. There was no yard and not 2 separate buildings. We have to decide if the building with the skulls was part of that original building. Did they alter it, add a yard and create 2 separate buildings? If not then the hayloft didn't exist in 1815. |
Phil,look at the chimney on that building,it look slike its alaways been on the end of a building,as opposed to being within one.
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Phill_d
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| The 1815 map says the building marked with the cross extended the whole way down to the angled corner were we now have the skulls. There was no yard and not 2 separate buildings. We have to decide if the building with the skulls was part of that original building. Did they alter it, add a yard and create 2 separate buildings? If not then the hayloft didn't exist in 1815. |
Phil,look at the chimney on that building,it look slike its alaways been on the end of a building,as opposed to being within one.
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I disagree Chris. I think that chimney stack ran into the rooms next door as well. We all have chimney breast on internal walls don't we? I think that building was the same to the corner. This is the building one down from the Scotsman pub. What shop is in there these days?
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cnosni
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See wghat you mean about the green gate between the two buildings,though i think it looks more of a tiny ginnel entrance,so perhaps it didnt warrant a show on the 1815 map,having said that the ginnel between the Crown and Fleece and the present car park
does appear.
Perhaps,as you suggest,the building is not contemporary (to 1815),and therefore may not be the ACTUAL building where they died.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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Bloody 'ell!!!! I go away for two days and there's 6 pages of new stuff to trawl through!!!
Things to add...where do I start. I think the Old Crown idea is a red herring, but all avenues need to be examined, so worth adding. The coffin shop...must be easy to check what businesses were there in the early 20th century. However, it depends when the skulls were put up...a bit of a coincidence that a coffin-makers moved into a building with skulls on the wall!
I don't think the building at the end of the yard signed Gelder's was the old Cloth Hall. Going by the map, it's next door.
The angle on the 1815 map of the yard... I too think it's reasonably accurate, but not accurate enough to discount the skull wall not being there. As for that wall and the gable end...I think the central part of the wall is older, because it has been rendered or whitewashed at some time, and the corners (and top) haven't. This means they must be newer.
Thinking of the suffocation/ammonia poisoning. Haylofts were a wooden structure above stables etc, and there doesn't look to be enough "depth" to suffocate below. They were off the floor to allow air to circulate to keep the hay dry, so how would enough hay have rotted to create the amount of ammonia needed to overcome two people?
Chris's parish church theory...it STILL stands up IMO.
I don't think Crown Street and Assembly Street were one and the same. Assembly Street does not exist on the 1847 map, but does on the 1906 map. It runs alongside the Assembly building cutting through the third White Cloth Hall (a little like the railway.) Just thought I'd add my 2p worth!
The meeting tomorrow at the Corn Exchange...can I come?
PS Great work, everyone!
PPS The £84 stolen from the Crown & Fleece in 18whenever is worth over £6500 in today's money! A not inconsiderable amount - today's pubs don't usually have that kind of money lying about!
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