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drapesy
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Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
Aye, very! I've had to put an old Magazine album on (vinyl!) to clear me 'ead!!!
I'd like to help out with the microfilm searching, but it depends on work. I'll see what I can do.
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Ok,as Drapesy is ok with Sunday 11th May for the meet up then can we say the same afternoon for the library,then go to the meet up afterwards.
Drapesy Sunday 11th May for the meet up is good with me then,how about a bit of microfilm reading? |
Sorry -  as I.ve put on the request fro help thread I work most sundays - till 4.30 - so it will have to be pub only .
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chameleon
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
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3606 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
Aye, very! I've had to put an old Magazine album on (vinyl!) to clear me 'ead!!!
I'd like to help out with the microfilm searching, but it depends on work. I'll see what I can do.
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Ok,as Drapesy is ok with Sunday 11th May for the meet up then can we say the same afternoon for the library,then go to the meet up afterwards.
Drapesy Sunday 11th May for the meet up is good with me then,how about a bit of microfilm reading? |
You used to be able to 'book' the readers at the library - might be worth trying to avoid disappointment.
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drapesy
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Burley, Leeds
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Thanks for that Geordie Exile - This is certainly our pub - The name 'Crown and Fleece' is highly unusual , if not unique, and the fact that the entry says'Crown and Fleece, Leeds' makes it a certainty.
The pub is marked on the O.S.map Si posted of 1906. it is 'believed' it closed in the 1930s - but it would be nice to have a more concrete date.
Not only is the pub name unusual - so is the Publicans name 'Molineaux' - (which is not only unusual but has various variant spellings) - now where have we seen that exact surname before......?
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drapesy
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Burley, Leeds
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cnosni
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Leeds
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2685 posts
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| chameleon wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
Aye, very! I've had to put an old Magazine album on (vinyl!) to clear me 'ead!!!
I'd like to help out with the microfilm searching, but it depends on work. I'll see what I can do.
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Ok,as Drapesy is ok with Sunday 11th May for the meet up then can we say the same afternoon for the library,then go to the meet up afterwards.
Drapesy Sunday 11th May for the meet up is good with me then,how about a bit of microfilm reading? |
You used to be able to 'book' the readers at the library - might be worth trying to avoid disappointment. |
Yeah thats usually the case during the week,sundays is alittle quieter.
However if i can get a few of us ill try and book at least 2 readers.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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It Is amazing Drapsey your right. Were finding out loads of stuff. The one thing I can't believe is we can't find a picture of the Crown & fleece itself.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| It Is amazing Drapsey your right. Were finding out loads of stuff. The one thing I can't believe is we can't find a picture of the Crown & fleece itself. |
Thats very true,we saw a lot of stuff that we could have started delving into,it takes will power to stay on course.
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dsco
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Leeds
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26-Jan-2007 12:51:48
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374 posts
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Good lord I can't believe how much I've missed on this thread... amazing work guys, congrats all round!
I'd certainly be up for a pint whenever you're having one - 11th May is it? Might even chip in a useful contribution and trawl some microfiche for yers 
dsco
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cnosni
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| dsco wrote: |
Good lord I can't believe how much I've missed on this thread... amazing work guys, congrats all round!
I'd certainly be up for a pint whenever you're having one - 11th May is it? Might even chip in a useful contribution and trawl some microfiche for yers
dsco |
Ok Dunki,let us know for def.
Personally in think out of the two skulls Dunki looks a little more weathered!
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Mick_SGC
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Chicago!!
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20-Mar-2008 19:31:16
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123 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| It Is amazing Drapsey your right. Were finding out loads of stuff. The one thing I can't believe is we can't find a picture of the Crown & fleece itself. |
There's loads around the damn place but not even a snippet of the place itself!
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Geordie-exile
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Tyneside
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06-Feb-2008 22:39:43
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540 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
There we go - knew I'd seen it before . A pub sign that has been posted on Secret Leeds more than once in the past - the former Bay Horse on Briggate. This pub closed c1907 and I've heard it said that the name (Molineaux)referred to a former owner/landlord rather than a brewery.
Cant help thinking that its the same person!!
Perhaps he'd already left by that time to take over the 'Crown and Fleece' - or maybe he owned both pubs - or maybe it was his Father or Brother????
This is an amazing thread - it seems the more we dig the more coincidences and fascinating tales we turn up. |
Well remembered drapesy. It seems we have another mystery here - maybe deserves its own thread? Leodis thinks Molineaux was the licensee:
http://tinyurl.com/5w9fxj
Yet this site thinks it was the brewery:
http://www.geocities.com/ipswich_signs/leeds.html
Also, a reference to an Anne Molyneaux who owned an inn on Briggate:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/molyneaux/messages/80.html
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drapesy
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Re Molineaux - Geordie exile's post above.
I think Leodis is far more likely to be right here - It seems to me that the second site (geocities) has been compiled by someone with little or no knowledge of Leeds - who is simply assuming that 'Molineaux' (which they spell incorrectly in one instance) was a brewery.
[ Incidentally they have little or no knowledge of Latin either as they believe that the clock outside the Time Ball Buildings that has the motto 'Tempus Fugit' translates to 'Time waits for no man'; it doesn't - it means 'Time Flies']
I have searched google for a brewery of the name Molineaux without success - I'm sure that if such a brewery had existed we would have some record of it.
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LS1
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Leeds
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I am wondering if I ever heard the phrase "Molineaux Ales" I could be wrong but I'm sure I heard it somewhere... (unless there were a family of people called Molineaux in Leeds that had a small brew house for a number of pubs they owned?)
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Si
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Otley
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You're not thinking of Vaux are you, Lee? I know it sounds different, but I'm thinking of the AUX ending?
I think if Molineaux was a small brewery, it would be unlikely to have a carved stone sign (expensive.) More likely it would be painted on the windows, like "Braimes Ales" on the Boot and Shoe, Richmond Street (a lost pub - and brewery - since 1904.) However, it seems to me to be unusual to have the publican's name carved in stone, too. What do you think, Drapesy? Have you seen this done before?
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Geordie-exile
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| LS1 wrote: |
| I am wondering if I ever heard the phrase "Molineaux Ales" I could be wrong but I'm sure I heard it somewhere... (unless there were a family of people called Molineaux in Leeds that had a small brew house for a number of pubs they owned?) |
The 1901 census for Shadwell lists an Ann Molineaux, a licensed victualler.
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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A quick look on GENUKI shows that in 1822, John Ainley owned a shop and eating-house at 14 Call Lane. There was no mention of Crown Street or the Crown and Fleece in those records. In 1829, John Ainley is listed as victualler of the Crown and Fleece at 3 Crown Street, and is still listed in 1837. So, perhaps the pub opened between 1822 and 1829?
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drapesy
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Phill_d
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Phill_d
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Lets hope this is another piece of the Jigsaw for our skull friends 
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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cnosni
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| Tasa wrote: |
A quick look on GENUKI shows that in 1822, John Ainley owned a shop and eating-house at 14 Call Lane. There was no mention of Crown Street or the Crown and Fleece in those records. In 1829, John Ainley is listed as victualler of the Crown and Fleece at 3 Crown Street, and is still listed in 1837. So, perhaps the pub opened between 1822 and 1829?
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John Ainley/Ainsley is the landlord in the 1841 census.
I think the style of the building of the Crown and Fleece would appear to be contemporary with the beginning of the 19th century.
Perhaps a qualified "eye" could be of benefit.
However dating the pub will not necessarily date the small building which the skulls were on,as the whole area is a mishmash of buildings over a 300 year period.
If the building is from the period 1822- 1829 then it is outside the parameters for when we suspect the two men died,which was either 1779-1780 or 1802- 1812/13.
However we should also take into consideration that the pub may have been built on an older structure and one would hope that this was a pub otherwise the whole story of them being put in the stable/hayloft of a PUB would have to be revised.
The 1775 map for that area does not show the layout of Crown Street as such,just a vague shaded area which suggests that there are buildings on the site.
Perhaps the library trip could do with a check of an earlier Directories or even voters rolls to see if we can identify when there was a pub there.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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A quick update here guys! The story is in the Y.E.P again tonight. Thats more publicity for the cause!
Ok Chris I've been thinking along the similar lines as you. Are we been thrown a red herring with the folk lore version? Is the soldier, pub, press gang and stables version to be relied on too heavily? We only know the kings shilling and the soldiers been given a bed of straw are from the folk lore version and there is no hard fact. I can't see these skulls been placed here by the army for two lowly recruits. Soldiers (sometime circa the Peninsula war) even had to supply there own uniform. We need to look at the building with the skulls more closely. Was it even part of the pub and does it look like former stables? I think we need to have a look at the interior if possible.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Si
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Otley
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| drapesy wrote: |
Thanks for that Geordie Exile - This is certainly our pub - The name 'Crown and Fleece' is highly unusual , if not unique, and the fact that the entry says'Crown and Fleece, Leeds' makes it a certainty.
The pub is marked on the O.S.map Si posted of 1906. it is 'believed' it closed in the 1930s - but it would be nice to have a more concrete date.
Not only is the pub name unusual - so is the Publicans name 'Molineaux' - (which is not only unusual but has various variant spellings) - now where have we seen that exact surname before......? |
A David Thornton Molineaux is listed in BD&M as born c1853 and died in Leeds Sept. 1905.
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Phill_d
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