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Si
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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Hi Geordie,
As your e-mail didn't bounce, I'll try once more - might gee him up. Did you use his e-mail address off that site?
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3382 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
| Yes, they do appear more weathered, Lee. We know the article pic was taken before 1968, but we've no idea when the other was taken, but it must be later (obviously!) Presumably there's a fair gap. Perhaps the demolition of the other wall speeded up the process? They need rain-water protection. |
I wonder then if they are older than we think or not? Who knows, the curiosity is killing me!! |
I'm sure they are, Lee.
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Geordie-exile
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Location:
Tyneside
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06-Feb-2008 22:39:43
Posted:
540 posts
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| Si wrote: |
Hi Geordie,
As your e-mail didn't bounce, I'll try once more - might gee him up. Did you use his e-mail address off that site? |
Yep I did. I also goggled said email address and wherever it appears seems to be a few years ago so 
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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There's something puzzles me a bit here. If the men were indeed trying to dodge the army, then I can't see the Army going to the expense of having these skulls placed here as a mark of respect. The Conscience objector and pacifist has long since been dealt the hardest blow. Even during WWI soldiers were shot for cowardice. Is it possible they were placed here as a warning to others? It was off the beaten track perhaps?
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| There's something puzzles me a bit here. If the men were indeed trying to dodge the army, then I can't see the Army going to the expense of having these skulls placed here as a mark of respect. The Conscience objector and pacifist has long since been dealt the hardest blow. Even during WWI soldiers were shot for cowardice. Is it possible they were placed here as a warning to others? It was off the beaten track perhaps? |
Or simply placed by either locals with some sympathy for their sad ending,OR possibly even by relatives.
Would think that the former would be the best option of the two here.
Phils right,i cant see the authorities going to any lengths to commemorate this.
From what Phil and i have come across about the press gangs of 1779-1780 ,both in the library and on the web, it would appear that they were extremely unpopular not only because of the nature of the press gangs but the war itself.
I would have thought that it would be unlikely that they would want to to draw attention to the deaths,for which they were partially responsible,the locals were clearly hostile to the press gangs,and therefore the military,at this time.
And as for being a warning from the military to others then this would seem unlikely as they died accidentally,whereas if they had been executed then POSSIBLY the military would want to put up some form of warning.
But we must not forget that Forgetful Cat posted this earlier
# Posted on: 14-Apr-2008 19:52:23. Quote
"In the Yorkshire Evening Post publication 'Memory Lane Volume Two' I saw a photo of two skulls and read the
accompanying paragraph which stated....
‘In Crown Court, an alleyway between Kirkgate and the Corn Exchange in Leeds there are two stone skulls set
high on a wall of a former stable. These are to commemorate two men who were press ganged (crimped) into
the army at the time of the Peninsula war (1803-14). They were locked overnight in a stable where they sank,
all too comfortably, into a bed of straw and suffocated’. Further research revealed….
They were asphyxiated by the ammonia gas given off by the rotting hay and the military authorities had the
skulls carved and placed on the building “pour encourager les autres”
The stone skulls, once on the walls on Ion Dyson Ltd, were removed in 1974 when the firm moved to
Buslingthorpe and they incorporated them in the wall there – two miles out – and to rather an inappropriate
setting and location in my opinion!"
So the period of 1803-1814 would also be in the list of possible timescales.
This period would seem to be more in line with the period of the building of the Crown and Fleece.
Going to British Library tommorrow,will chech their database of the Leeds Mercury Newspaper from 1800 onwards,i would have thought that there would be some sort of mention in there,just finding something.
Oh Bl**dy hell,another of my long winded posts,yawn yawn yawn
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cnosni
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Leeds
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Posted:
2685 posts
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Recieved a reply from YAS today
"your recent (and very interesting) email has been circulated by the Yorkshire Archaeological Society's Secretary, Jo Heron, to the Society's librarians and to some knowledgeable members. Unfortunately, although we have looked in a number of hopeful sources, we have been unable to locate any relevant material in the Library. We have also consulted our sister Society, the Thoresby Society, but no one there could help either.
I am very sorry to have to reply so disappointingly, but it is always possible that one of the members that Jo circulated might know something. If you do find an answer, we would love to hear back from you.
The skulls certainly look older from your photographs.
Best wishes - Robert Frost, Senior Librarian"
Never mind,faint heart ne'er won fair maid, (Ritchie on Bottom")
Have thanked them for their efforts,and have also asked if they could lend some assistance in some possible dating of the skulls,as they agree that the skulls look older than either late 18th or early 19th century.
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Brandy
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21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1467 posts
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there must be someone somewhere who knows something about our beloved boney twosome
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2141 posts
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This is great research work by Cnosni and Phill - thanks guys!.
I'm amazed you found that Yorkshire Evening Post article Phill - how did you manage that??? I'm 99 percent certain that that's the article I saw and decided to check out the skulls for myself -(I must have been a strange child!!!)
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chameleon
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
Posted:
3606 posts
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| Geordie-exile wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
Hi Geordie,
As your e-mail didn't bounce, I'll try once more - might gee him up. Did you use his e-mail address off that site? |
Yep I did. I also goggled said email address and wherever it appears seems to be a few years ago so |
Just looking over the net, Erols as an IP don't seem to have a very good reputation, and have been known to assign duplicate IDs to different people.
Might just be the cause of e-mail problems.
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The Parksider
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Leeds
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10-Nov-2007 08:25:38
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After reading the YEP memory lane in '74 I went to see the skulls.
they were in sandstone an weathered.
years later I went again and they had gone - probably to Leeds museum, and the rectangle left had been filled with cement rendering.
They were high up on the left hand side of they yard as you walked down from the corn Exchange to Kirkgate.
Looks like the rendering to protect the old brick work covers the spot now, but is was high up where they were....
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LS1
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Leeds
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1307 posts
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Well done guys this is really great stuff you have found out. Unfortunately I am no closer finding out anything to sdo with the owners of the yard. I am gonna cal them I think tomorrow and go straight in there...Unless anyone has any great objections on me doing this???
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drapesy
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Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
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2141 posts
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| The Parksider wrote: |
After reading the YEP memory lane in '74 I went to see the skulls.
they were in sandstone an weathered.
years later I went again and they had gone - probably to Leeds museum, and the rectangle left had been filled with cement rendering.
They were high up on the left hand side of they yard as you walked down from the corn Exchange to Kirkgate.
Looks like the rendering to protect the old brick work covers the spot now, but is was high up where they were.... |
Parksider have you actually read through this thread ? I know its long but it's full of interesting stuff.... Like you I saw the skulls in situ and later the place where they had been.
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Brandy
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Location:
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21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1467 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| The Parksider wrote: |
After reading the YEP memory lane in '74 I went to see the skulls.
they were in sandstone an weathered.
years later I went again and they had gone - probably to Leeds museum, and the rectangle left had been filled with cement rendering.
They were high up on the left hand side of they yard as you walked down from the corn Exchange to Kirkgate.
Looks like the rendering to protect the old brick work covers the spot now, but is was high up where they were.... |
Parksider have you actually read through this thread ? I know its long but it's full of interesting stuff.... Like you I saw the skulls in situ and later the place where they had been. |
and then later still' to the place where the actually are lol
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Si
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Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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| chameleon wrote: |
| Geordie-exile wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
Hi Geordie,
As your e-mail didn't bounce, I'll try once more - might gee him up. Did you use his e-mail address off that site? |
Yep I did. I also goggled said email address and wherever it appears seems to be a few years ago so |
Just looking over the net, Erols as an IP don't seem to have a very good reputation, and have been known to assign duplicate IDs to different people.
Might just be the cause of e-mail problems. |
My third and fourth attempts bounced too.
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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| Well done guys this is really great stuff you have found out. Unfortunately I am no closer finding out anything to sdo with the owners of the yard. I am gonna cal them I think tomorrow and go straight in there...Unless anyone has any great objections on me doing this??? |
Go for it, Lee.
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Si
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Otley
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Posted:
3382 posts
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A literal translation of "pour encourager les autres" is "for the encouragement of others." Why encouragement?
Nice work again, Cnosni.
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Tasa
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Location:
Headingley, Leeds
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08-Oct-2007 15:41:52
Posted:
328 posts
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Apologies if this duplicates anything someone else has already said, but I've been following this thread with great interest.
I was browsing through some books and maps last night and maps of 1775 don't show any buildings around what is now Crown Street, although they are clearly there on a map of 1815, but the street is not yet named at that point. On a map of 1847 it is shown as Crown Street. So, that may help to date the buildings.
In the Thoresby Society book of Leeds Intelligencer and Leeds Mercury extracts 1769-82, there were some interesting mentions of buildings around Kirkgate/Call Lane and army recruitment prior to 1775, but based on what I found on the maps, I concentrated on the extracts after that date and found the following:
Tues July 29 1777: To be sold by auction: a freehold estate, situate in Kirkgate in Leeds late belonging to Mr Richard Lawson a Bankrupt consisting of Four New-built Dwelling-Houses, fronting the Street, and adjoining to the Old Assembly-Room. Also several other Dwelling-Houses, Warehouses, and an Entire Yard, opening to the New Cloth-Hall. Apply to Mr James Banks, at the Buckram-House on the Bank, or Mr Samuel Mirfield, Merchant in Leeds, Assignees of the said Bankrupt's Effects.
[I know the properties for auction were listed as being in Kirkgate but the description of their location seems to attach them to what is now Crown Street - as the street did not yet exist, perhaps it was counted as part of Kirkgate?]
Tues March 17, 1778: [extract about recruiting able-bodied seamen or landsmen to serve aboard HMS Countess of Scarborough]
Tues Oct 20 1778: [extract about recruiting soldiers to serve the Honourable United East-India Company - apply at the Star and Garter in Call Lane]
Tues Feb 22 1780: [extract about a press-gang in Leeds]
cnosni, Let me know if you want to me to do any trawling of the Intelligencer and Mercury after 1882 to help out, as I have access to some volumes in the University Library (not sure which are available).
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Si
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Very interesting, Tasa. Thanks. Well, the buildings for auction are definately in the right area. According to Godfrey's 1847 map, the New Cloth Hall was on Crown Street, but the yard by it is White Swan Yard. The new Assembly Rooms (on the site of the north wing of the White Cloth Hall) are on Crown Street and were opened in 1777! Where were the old Assembly Rooms? I can't see them on the 1847 map.
Crown Court (and therefore The Crown and Fleece) had access to Kirkgate via a ginnel which ran close to the old Cloth Hall.
It looks like they did use pubs for recruiting stations, too. The Star and Garter is also close by.
PS Anyone see the Time Team programme on Monday night?
It was about an archaelogical dig of Liverpool's first wet dock. It was described as the "springboard to Liverpool's future greatness."
Couldn't the same be said of Leeds's old Cloth Hall? And look at the state of it. They must be spending a fortune on Liverpool's old dock...
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Geordie-exile
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'Pour encourager les autres' is a quote from Voltaire's Candide written in 1759 and is used to describe a situation where someone's been made an example of.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1469618
However, that YEP article doesn't state that these words were used alongside the skulls does it? It could be the journalist himself who was illustrating the situation.
Anyway, it might help date-wise.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
This is great research work by Cnosni and Phill - thanks guys!.
I'm amazed you found that Yorkshire Evening Post article Phill - how did you manage that??? I'm 99 percent certain that that's the article I saw and decided to check out the skulls for myself -(I must have been a strange child!!!) |
Drapesy,i swear to you and all the SLers that we walked into the research room,walked into the area with all this stuff,and i said to Phil
"the answer or a clue is in here somewhere",i picked up a large rectangular thin box,said to Phil just "look at all this stuff ",opened the box and inside was 3 newspaper style YEP special editions that they print every now and then,opened the first one,turned some pages and there they were,thats the honest truth,the first thing we looked at.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| Well done guys this is really great stuff you have found out. Unfortunately I am no closer finding out anything to sdo with the owners of the yard. I am gonna cal them I think tomorrow and go straight in there...Unless anyone has any great objections on me doing this??? |
Good man,direct action,if no luck on the phone well send Phil in through a window or a drain of some sort
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Tasa
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Location:
Headingley, Leeds
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08-Oct-2007 15:41:52
Posted:
328 posts
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Si, the old assembly rooms are shown on the 1775 map as Indpendent Meeting Rooms (I think - the writing is very small!) and on a later map as Assembly Rooms. They look to be roughly on the site of the current Corn Exchange, or possibly just opposite, where the bus stops are, on Call Lane.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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2638 posts
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It was funny drapsey. We picked up the first box of old newspapers we saw. Literally the first page opened had the skulls in all there glory. A good omen perhaps?
I think were looking at 2 possible dates here the 1780 press gang activity and the Peninusula war years 1803-1814 as stated in the quote in the Y.E.P story, although we don't have a source for this either. Press gang activity had seem to have ceased by this time. Although we have to keep all options open. I tend to think the skulls are very old and I've been reading with interest the work of Margaret Pullan who spent 9 years researching the forgotten burials and memorial markings within St Peters church of the V.I.P's and servicemen. I wonder if she could help us out here. The Y.E.P article is here
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/leeds/Research-gives-the-story-of.3552732.jp
And regarding Tasa's question about Crown court not been mentioned, One thing me and Chris noticed trawling through the burials for the Parish church area the areas seemed to be batched together. The main areas seemed to be Kirkgate, Mabgate, Timble bridge e.t.c. Individual streets and locations were seldom included. You very rarely found any one older than 41 as well.
Edit. I've just seen Chris has answered Drapseys question too!
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Si
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Posted:
3382 posts
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Thanks, Tasa. Nothing on the 1847 map, but by then the new Assembly Rooms were built. However, they aren't named on the map either! It all builds up a picture of the area at the time, mind.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Tasa wrote: |
Apologies if this duplicates anything someone else has already said, but I've been following this thread with great interest.
I was browsing through some books and maps last night and maps of 1775 don't show any buildings around what is now Crown Street, although they are clearly there on a map of 1815, but the street is not yet named at that point. On a map of 1847 it is shown as Crown Street. So, that may help to date the buildings.
In the Thoresby Society book of Leeds Intelligencer and Leeds Mercury extracts 1769-82, there were some interesting mentions of buildings around Kirkgate/Call Lane and army recruitment prior to 1775, but based on what I found on the maps, I concentrated on the extracts after that date and found the following:
Tues July 29 1777: To be sold by auction: a freehold estate, situate in Kirkgate in Leeds late belonging to Mr Richard Lawson a Bankrupt consisting of Four New-built Dwelling-Houses, fronting the Street, and adjoining to the Old Assembly-Room. Also several other Dwelling-Houses, Warehouses, and an Entire Yard, opening to the New Cloth-Hall. Apply to Mr James Banks, at the Buckram-House on the Bank, or Mr Samuel Mirfield, Merchant in Leeds, Assignees of the said Bankrupt's Effects.
[I know the properties for auction were listed as being in Kirkgate but the description of their location seems to attach them to what is now Crown Street - as the street did not yet exist, perhaps it was counted as part of Kirkgate?]
Tues March 17, 1778: [extract about recruiting able-bodied seamen or landsmen to serve aboard HMS Countess of Scarborough]
Tues Oct 20 1778: [extract about recruiting soldiers to serve the Honourable United East-India Company - apply at the Star and Garter in Call Lane]
Tues Feb 22 1780: [extract about a press-gang in Leeds]
cnosni, Let me know if you want to me to do any trawling of the Intelligencer and Mercury after 1882 to help out, as I have access to some volumes in the University Library (not sure which are available).
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Thanks for that Tasa,all help is welcome.
The extract you mention about press gangs in 1780 is what Phil found trawling through the same book,unfortunately it ends 1782,i wonder if they did another volume after this?
Having thought about the date of this volume,and the very detailed news it contains then if there WAS going to be a newspaper mention of the recruits death at the time of the 1779-1780 press ganging(this is when it was applied in England for the Army,it was revoked in May 1780) then it would appear in this volume im sure.
With this in mind,and the probable age of the pub,the YEP mention of the Peninsula war as the era for when the men died then i am beginning to lean more and more towards this being the correct period,1803-1814.
One other thing that the pressing or "Crimping" in the times of the Napoleonic wars was down to an army sergeant major(or someone of a similar rank) pressing the Kings shilling into a recruits hand.
This it would appear was deemed as signing the dotted line and there ws no way out.
The article mentions that the two men had had second thougts,and it was this that led them to be locked into the stables,whereas,from what i can gather,the Pressganging of 1779-1780 was that they hijacked you in the street and carted you off.
Phil has a copy of a contemporary description of the 1779-1780 pressganging which states that no men were out late at night etc etc.
So there was no "change of mind" that could be possibly contemplated in 1779-1780,where as someone would have second thoughts when they had taken the Kings shilling.
Perhaps some more research into this area and its practices could give us some more clues
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