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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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Message sent to the YAS,dont worry Geordie-Exile,it was without any hint of Shandy!!
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LS1
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Leeds
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23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
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1307 posts
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Why would anyone even bother to put skulls up? they were obviously not important people if they were "pressganged", and in those days taking the time to carve these would have been relatively expensive and time consuming.
Why would there be a memorial, and why would it be skulls?
I know the victorians were more macarbe than we are now, but does a dual skull like that symbolise anything else?
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LS1
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Leeds
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23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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Fascinating stuff, everyone. Nothing like a good mystery!
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3382 posts
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I think your church theory still stands up, Cnosni.
If the two recruits died during the Peninsular War, then now would be an ideal time to return the skulls, as it's their bicentenary (give or take a couple of years.)
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Ok gang We have some news! I guess I can get this sorted with Chris (cnosi) via e-mail but we need some other folks rearding a newspaper story. Possible pics.. who wants to be involved (or has helped) with the campaign to get the skulls put back. Can anyone wanting to help e mail me phill_dvsn@yahoo.co.uk
I'll be out this morning but will get back to you.
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Brandy
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21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| This is all fascinating stuff. So they weren't actually on the pub then? Even the fella who wrote the book Haunted Leeds didn't know what happened to them. |
I think its hard to say where the pub actually was Phill. The wall the skulls were on is/was old and could have had various uses/owners over the years. I think the skulls were somewhere here; |
Just had a look at Godfrey's 1847 Yard-to-a-Mile OS map Leeds (Headrow) sheet 11. The pub is marked as next to the existing Crown building, three doors down, by the look of it. The street it's on is Crown Street and the yard is called Crown Court which passes through two buildings to reach Kirkgate.
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Croggy
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Leeds
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22-Sep-2007 00:58:31
Posted:
212 posts
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Very interesting developments ...
Thanks guys!
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
Ok gang We have some news! I guess I can get this sorted with Chris (cnosi) via e-mail but we need some other folks rearding a newspaper story. Possible pics.. who wants to be involved (or has helped) with the campaign to get the skulls put back. Can anyone wanting to help e mail me phill_dvsn@yahoo.co.uk
I'll be out this morning but will get back to you. |
Just got in Phil,im interested as you know.
I sent an enquiry to the Yorkshire Archaeolgical society about the skulls,and perhaps their views on the possible age of the skulls may be of some importance.
What i wanted to do is try and pinpoint when the deaths of the recruits occured,as i said i will have a look at the PR when i can,but am in all week.
How did it go with the YEP?
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Thanks for the people who have sent me an e-mail. I've just replied back & sent you one too csnosi! Any more???
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| This is all fascinating stuff. So they weren't actually on the pub then? Even the fella who wrote the book Haunted Leeds didn't know what happened to them. |
I think its hard to say where the pub actually was Phill. The wall the skulls were on is/was old and could have had various uses/owners over the years. I think the skulls were somewhere here; |
Just had a look at Godfrey's 1847 Yard-to-a-Mile OS map Leeds (Headrow) sheet 11. The pub is marked as next to the existing Crown building, three doors down, by the look of it. The street it's on is Crown Street and the yard is called Crown Court which passes through two buildings to reach Kirkgate.
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Glad you've been looking at this Si. I must admit I thought the corner building was very small. I should imagine there should be pictures of the pub as it closed 1930.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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I've tried searching Leodis (no hits for the pub) for Crown Street. I can't see the pub in any of them. Most pics are the Cloth Hall or the Assembly Rooms. This building (according to the Godfrey maps,) and the street it's on (Assembly Street) appear to have been built on part of the third Cloth Hall site, presumably after the railway was cut through.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3382 posts
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I've been comparing the 1847 map with the Google Earth pic on page 3 of this thread. The pub was the bottom part of the building (the bit with two gable ends.) The flat piece of ground below it once contained a building which abutted the pub. Crown Court dog-legged right here and ran up to Kirkgate. As stated in Haunted Leeds, the pub's property also ran in this direction (brewhouse, stables and, presumably, the hay loft.) I'm only guessing, but maybe the skulls were on the (now demolished) wall that was at the bottom of the picture? The part of the yard Drapesy highlighted would appear to be too far from the pub and is a dead-end.
Hope this makes sense!
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chameleon
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
Posted:
3606 posts
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| Si wrote: |
Unfortunately, the Haunted Leeds book does not give a date - it just says "during the days of the press gangs." However, it does mention that "the property went across Kirkgate." It then mentions how the recruits died and "the event was commemorated by placing two carved stone skulls on the wall of the inn." It then tells the story of "the King's shilling."
That's about it, Cnosni.
The skulls don't look like they were carved specifically for this event to me, either, but it's all speculation. |
Just chanced upon an entry in Peter Brear's 'Images of Leeds', don't think it's been mentioned, there is a small picture (probably the same as posted earlier) with the caption -
'These two carved stone skulls are set into the wall of a former stable in Crown Court, the narrow alley which runs from Kirkgate through to the Corn Exchange. According to local tradition, they commemorate two men who were sleeping in the straw here after being press-ganged into the army and suffocated during the night'.
Seems to be in line with the general thoughts and perhaps allows a tentative guess at a date.
Whats with the YEP Phill - email me perhaps?
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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2638 posts
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Yes it's an e-mail Chameleon. What we basically need is a some folk from the S.L gang who want to help out with the skulls for a picture to go with the story and some quotes e.t.c. It will be during the day in town. I presume the old pub would be good. There's been a few volunteers so far & I can put the time down here when It's all arranged.
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2141 posts
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| Si wrote: |
I've been comparing the 1847 map with the Google Earth pic on page 3 of this thread. The pub was the bottom part of the building (the bit with two gable ends.) The flat piece of ground below it once contained a building which abutted the pub. Crown Court dog-legged right here and ran up to Kirkgate. As stated in Haunted Leeds, the pub's property also ran in this direction (brewhouse, stables and, presumably, the hay loft.) I'm only guessing, but maybe the skulls were on the (now demolished) wall that was at the bottom of the picture? The part of the yard Drapesy highlighted would appear to be too far from the pub and is a dead-end.
Hope this makes sense! |
I think I must be one of very few (perhaps the only???) Secret Leeders to have seen the skulls in their original location - and have been racking my brain to remember exactly where -(it was c 35-40 years ago!-). I can't be certain but I'm 80-90 percent certain it was in area I highlighted on the map.
I also subsequently saw the bricked -up place where they had been - so even if the original wall has been demolished (which I would question) then that proves that skulls were not removed in order to save them from any demolition.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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2638 posts
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It's a bugger when your trying to remember stuff. It happens to me a lot. It's even more annoying when you have seen this stuff and never thought to photograph it. If you look on the next page Drapsey the entrance to the smaller yard is gated off. There is a buzzer & the address is 11 Crown court yard. It might be good to have a look down there,. I've seen some pictures at the very end of that yard & it lead to Gelders the Drapers. You can see those pics at the Strangely familiar exhibition at Whitehall quays.
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wiggy
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Location:
essex
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26-Jun-2007 14:09:49
Posted:
1073 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| It's a bugger when your trying to remember stuff. It happens to me a lot. It's even more annoying when you have seen this stuff and never thought to photograph it. If you look on the next page Drapsey the entrance to the smaller yard is gated off. There is a buzzer & the address is 11 Crown court yard. It might be good to have a look down there,. I've seen some pictures at the very end of that yard & it lead to Gelders the Drapers. You can see those pics at the Strangely familiar exhibition at Whitehall keys. |
I LOVE ALL THE SAXON NAMES AND TERMINOLOGY!!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
I've been comparing the 1847 map with the Google Earth pic on page 3 of this thread. The pub was the bottom part of the building (the bit with two gable ends.) The flat piece of ground below it once contained a building which abutted the pub. Crown Court dog-legged right here and ran up to Kirkgate. As stated in Haunted Leeds, the pub's property also ran in this direction (brewhouse, stables and, presumably, the hay loft.) I'm only guessing, but maybe the skulls were on the (now demolished) wall that was at the bottom of the picture? The part of the yard Drapesy highlighted would appear to be too far from the pub and is a dead-end.
Hope this makes sense! |
I think I must be one of very few (perhaps the only???) Secret Leeders to have seen the skulls in their original location - and have been racking my brain to remember exactly where -(it was c 35-40 years ago!-). I can't be certain but I'm 80-90 percent certain it was in area I highlighted on the map.
I also subsequently saw the bricked -up place where they had been - so if the original wall has been demolished (which I would question) then that proves that skulls were not removed in order to save them from any demolition. |
I bow to your superior knowledge, Drapesy.
I guess the pub could have owned properties all over Crown Court, if indeed the skulls were placed exactly where the two died.
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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| wiggy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| It's a bugger when your trying to remember stuff. It happens to me a lot. It's even more annoying when you have seen this stuff and never thought to photograph it. If you look on the next page Drapsey the entrance to the smaller yard is gated off. There is a buzzer & the address is 11 Crown court yard. It might be good to have a look down there,. I've seen some pictures at the very end of that yard & it lead to Gelders the Drapers. You can see those pics at the Strangely familiar exhibition at Whitehall keys. |
I LOVE ALL THE SAXON NAMES AND TERMINOLOGY!!
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I love the name - Crown Court. Now, how did the theme tune go....?
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drapesy
User
Location:
Burley, Leeds
Joined on:
24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2141 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
I've been comparing the 1847 map with the Google Earth pic on page 3 of this thread. The pub was the bottom part of the building (the bit with two gable ends.) The flat piece of ground below it once contained a building which abutted the pub. Crown Court dog-legged right here and ran up to Kirkgate. As stated in Haunted Leeds, the pub's property also ran in this direction (brewhouse, stables and, presumably, the hay loft.) I'm only guessing, but maybe the skulls were on the (now demolished) wall that was at the bottom of the picture? The part of the yard Drapesy highlighted would appear to be too far from the pub and is a dead-end.
Hope this makes sense! |
I think I must be one of very few (perhaps the only???) Secret Leeders to have seen the skulls in their original location - and have been racking my brain to remember exactly where -(it was c 35-40 years ago!-). I can't be certain but I'm 80-90 percent certain it was in area I highlighted on the map.
I also subsequently saw the bricked -up place where they had been - so if the original wall has been demolished (which I would question) then that proves that skulls were not removed in order to save them from any demolition. |
I bow to your superior knowledge, Drapesy.
I guess the pub could have owned properties all over Crown Court, if indeed the skulls were placed exactly where the two died.
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I honestly wouldn't call it superior knowledge, Si!! - and I can't be certain if my memory isn't mistaken all these years later - More research is definitely needed. - After all it's only an assumption that the skulls were attached to the actual pub - they may well not have been as you say.
Is it possible to post the relevant map sections here - I'd love to see them??
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Si
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Otley
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I'll have a go, Drapesy. I'm no computer whiz-kid!
I may be some time!!!
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Si
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Location:
Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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Right. Here goes... This should be the 1847 map.
Failure! It says the image is too big. How do I reduce it?
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3382 posts
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In the meantime, I'll try the 1906 map.
'Earwig'
No. Same problem.
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