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Si
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3395 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
I found this painting of Kirkgate dated 1854. I don't know if there's anything of use on there. It gives us an idea of how it used to look.
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I think you can see Hills,directly behind the gas lamp on the right.
This drawing appears to be taken from the centre of Kirkgate,i would say just about where Ainsleys is and Ralph Thorsebys old house. |
Chris, I don't think it is Hill's, because there's no sign of the distinctive roofline of The White Cloth Hall just beyond it. Both buildings must be hidden behind the sticky-out building extreme right. The 1847 map shows more of a "stagger" in Kirkgate at the junction with Call Lane than there is today (between The Scotsman and The Mason's Arms.)
I'll try and post that photo today of the same view I mentioned earlier. It may be of interest?
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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18-Jan-2008 19:11:33
Posted:
651 posts
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of to Leeds in a moment.
If I find anything out I will post later.
Sorry we can't meet up Phil but I understand.
I will wtch out for "Invisible Ladies"<G> (this was an announcement of an entertainment in leeds in 1802 of a womans voice coming out of thin air, a letter to the paper gave various explanations of how it could be done).
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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08-Oct-2007 15:41:52
Posted:
328 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
I found this painting of Kirkgate dated 1854. I don't know if there's anything of use on there. It gives us an idea of how it used to look.
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I think you can see Hills,directly behind the gas lamp on the right.
This drawing appears to be taken from the centre of Kirkgate,i would say just about where Ainsleys is and Ralph Thorsebys old house. |
I'm back at the Parish Church on Friday lunchtime so I'll take a copy of the painting with me (photocopy, not actual copy - that would be too ridiculous!!) and try to place where on Kirkgate the artist was (bearing in mind that I will need to "look through" the current buildings to get the right perspective of the church). Cnosni, I agree. I think the London Hat Warehouse is at the corner of Kirkgate and Vicar Lane and the open market is Vicar's Croft (it opened initially as an open market and the covered market was built in 1857, being replaced with the current Victorian market in 1904. This fits with the painting being dated 1854.
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Si
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Yes, it's confusing, though. If the hat shop is the corner of Vicar Lane, the artist has placed Call Lane opposite, which it isn't. It's further down. New Market Street (now a continuation of Vicar Lane) was opposite. This would place the viewpoint further back up Kirkgate and it then doesn't look long enough. Maybe it was painted from memory!!! I think the late 1800s photo may shed some light on this, as it shows the 1857-1904 market, but I can't post it til my colleague get's to work - the scanner is in his office and I don't know how to work it!
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Si
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Having looked at the painting again, I agree with you, Tasa and Cnosni. That green and brown blob centre left is definately a market. The street looks shorter because the artist has used his licence to increase the size of St. Peter's to make a better composition. It does mean that Hill's is still not in the picture, though!!!
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Phill_d
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Phill_d
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Si
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Si
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cnosni
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| Si wrote: |
| The photo view as promised. Sorry about the page fold! Behind it are the Regent and Harp pubs. |
Dont come here with that "sorry about the fold busines...."(hee hee)
Yeah,on comparison it cant be Hills,but i think the the place where the artist was stood is on the Briggate side of Vicar Lane and Kirkgate because if it was from between the regent and the market then we wouldnt see the shops on the left,because this was the site of the free market from 1823.
Why couldnt have Greggs been open then cause we would know for certain,even the Ye olde branch of Hagenbachs would have been a help.
Good to see you are back Lee,thought youd done a runner with the Invisible lady .
Steves meeting her in The Palace again i think,however she never turns up until hes been waiting there for 3 hours,with a pint drank every 15 mins so he never gets past hello,how do you do!.
(hee hee)
I was thinking along the lines of speaking to Dysons first,and see if we can thrash out exactly what they are willing to do and what they expect us to do.
We also need to look at money as this wont happen all on its own.
Anyone know of how we can attract some finance from and public institutions etc?
On another note i have sent an email to the Yorkshire Diary,see if we can get some coverage /help there,lets see what happens.
I have not even had the courtesy of an acknowledgement from the YAS,might try their sister organisation the Thoresby Society.
Still no joy from Mr Mytum,the expert at liverpool University,though theres no answer to the phone so hes clearly out on some assignment or whatever.
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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08-Oct-2007 15:41:52
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Yeah,on comparison it cant be Hills,but i think the the place where the artist was stood is on the Briggate side of Vicar Lane and Kirkgate because if it was from between the regent and the market then we wouldnt see the shops on the left,because this was the site of the free market from 1823. |
Yes, when I said I thought the hat warehouse was at the corner of Kirkgate and Vicar Lane, I meant the General Eliot side, not the current market side.
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cnosni
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| Tasa wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Yeah,on comparison it cant be Hills,but i think the the place where the artist was stood is on the Briggate side of Vicar Lane and Kirkgate because if it was from between the regent and the market then we wouldnt see the shops on the left,because this was the site of the free market from 1823. |
Yes, when I said I thought the hat warehouse was at the corner of Kirkgate and Vicar Lane, I meant the General Eliot side, not the current market side.
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Me too Tasa,at a guess id say that the hat shop is the site of Ralph Thoresbys house,if not exact ten at least next door.
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Si
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Posted:
3395 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Tasa wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Yeah,on comparison it cant be Hills,but i think the the place where the artist was stood is on the Briggate side of Vicar Lane and Kirkgate because if it was from between the regent and the market then we wouldnt see the shops on the left,because this was the site of the free market from 1823. |
Yes, when I said I thought the hat warehouse was at the corner of Kirkgate and Vicar Lane, I meant the General Eliot side, not the current market side.
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Me too Tasa,at a guess id say that the hat shop is the site of Ralph Thoresbys house,if not exact ten at least next door.
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Me an'all, now you've put me right!
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Tasa
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cnosni, I was just looking up that very idea on Google (without success but I agree with you)!
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Steve Jones
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Well my trip to Leeds was a bust. i hadn't realised that today was the AGm of the Leeds Library till I got there. It was full and there was nowhere to sit and read properly.I did look through some stuff but nothing of use except noting the demolition of the old parish church in 1838 and a mention of various things being found at the time.
i wanted to check the 1838 papers at the main library so went there.
I spent ages trying to fit the microfilm into a machine and get it working but no joy/I tried various machines but no luck.
I gave up and wandered into the main library where reference area where I found Drapesy beavering away.
I said hi and left.
If anyone can get the microfilm to work,try checking 1838 papers just in case there is any mention of what was removed from the Parish church before the rebuilds and opening in 1841.
I didn't make The Palace. I went to Mr Foleys instead then home.
I have another day off next tuesday so will try leeds library again.
The collection of leeds tracts consists of bound copies of leaflets, booklets etc on all aspects of Leeds from many time periods.
Unfortunately I am not allowed to take them out of the library but there looked to be some interesting stuff if I can sit and go through it.
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arry awk
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I don't know if anyone has commented on this,but
Hill's Furniture store moved a couple of years back from
the same side of the Calls as the Crown Fisheries, to around the
corner a few doors down Kirkgate. Slightly larger premises I believe. This might have summat to do with the slight confusion
over the roof lines!
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cnosni
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| arry awk wrote: |
I don't know if anyone has commented on this,but
Hill's Furniture store moved a couple of years back from
the same side of the Calls as the Crown Fisheries, to around the
corner a few doors down Kirkgate. Slightly larger premises I believe. This might have summat to do with the slight confusion
over the roof lines!
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arry,is this your first post on here????
if so then welcome aboard, if not then where have you been???
The help with Hills previous location is gratefully accepted,what we are trying to work out is whether the current building occupied by Hills was visible in the 1854 picture,which we think its not.
arry,anything you can come up with around kirkgate is more than welcome as this thread has really become more than just the skulls,its become a thread for Kirkgate in general,its been very interesting.
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Tasa
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| cnosni wrote: |
Me too Tasa,at a guess id say that the hat shop is the site of Ralph Thoresbys house,if not exact ten at least next door.
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Yes, spot on! A quick trip to the reference library proved it. John Barrett, Hatter, is in the 1853 trade directory as being at 20 Kirkgate. At first I thought this meant the bottom of Kirkgate which wouldn't have made sense looking at the painting, but Fourness the Druggist, who occupied part of Ralph Thoresby's old house (found this fact on a website at lunchtime) is listed at No 17, meaning that the hat warehouse is exactly where we thought it was!
So, that means more renumbering of streets... or did the numbering of Kirkgate start at No 1 at the corner of Briggate (on the Debenhams side), go all the way down to the Parish Church then back up to Briggate on the other side? Would seem so.
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2145 posts
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| Tasa wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
Me too Tasa,at a guess id say that the hat shop is the site of Ralph Thoresbys house,if not exact ten at least next door.
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Yes, spot on! A quick trip to the reference library proved it. John Barrett, Hatter, is in the 1853 trade directory as being at 20 Kirkgate. At first I thought this meant the bottom of Kirkgate which wouldn't have made sense looking at the painting, but Fourness the Druggist, who occupied part of Ralph Thoresby's old house (found this fact on a website at lunchtime) is listed at No 17, meaning that the hat warehouse is exactly where we thought it was!
So, that means more renumbering of streets... or did the numbering of Kirkgate start at No 1 at the corner of Briggate (on the Debenhams side), go all the way down to the Parish Church then back up to Briggate on the other side? Would seem so.
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Kirkgate's numbering starts at the Corner of Briggate - and runs along the north side before crossing at the Palace (No67) then back up to Briggate (up to at least No137 at one time). Within this though there must have been slight number changes over time as buildings were joined or divided up. This system has existed since at least 1826. However in Baines 1817 directory the numbering seems completely different - starting at the parish church end and running along the south side to Briggate - crossing over and then running east back to the opposite side of the church.
However judging by the number given to Thoresby's house I think there must have been a yet earlier system more like the current one !!
Complicated isnt it??
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LS1
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Leeds
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Just noticed that if another four thousand views are made of this thread we will make it to the homepage "most popular threads"!
Who'd have ever thought it eh, from two little skulls?!
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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Tasa wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
Me too Tasa,at a guess id say that the hat shop is the site of Ralph Thoresbys house,if not exact ten at least next door.
|
Yes, spot on! A quick trip to the reference library proved it. John Barrett, Hatter, is in the 1853 trade directory as being at 20 Kirkgate. At first I thought this meant the bottom of Kirkgate which wouldn't have made sense looking at the painting, but Fourness the Druggist, who occupied part of Ralph Thoresby's old house (found this fact on a website at lunchtime) is listed at No 17, meaning that the hat warehouse is exactly where we thought it was!
So, that means more renumbering of streets... or did the numbering of Kirkgate start at No 1 at the corner of Briggate (on the Debenhams side), go all the way down to the Parish Church then back up to Briggate on the other side? Would seem so.
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Kirkgate's numbering starts at the Corner of Briggate - and runs along the north side before crossing at the Palace (No67) then back up to Briggate (up to at least No137 at one time). Within this though there must have been slight number changes over time as buildings were joined or divided up. This system has existed since at least 1826. However in Baines 1817 directory the numbering seems completely different - starting at the parish church end and running along the south side to Briggate - crossing over and then running east back to the opposite side of the church.
However judging by the number given to Thoresby's house I think there must have been a yet earlier system more like the current one !!
Complicated isnt it??
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Is this numbering system unique to Kirkgate, or is it common in Leeds, Drapesy?
If it is unusual, maybe it's got something to do with Kirkgate being so old?
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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From what i've been reading the building boom in Leeds started after 1820. Prior to that we didn't have all the roads we see now. Kirkgate was one long road that went to Briggate. The part of Vicar lane near the Corn exchange didn't exist in 1821. I guess when all the buildings were demolished the numbering system was a real mess & got changed as time went on.
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Si
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That's right, Phill. The bottom part of Vicar Lane doesn't exist on both 1847 and 1906 maps. On the 1847 one, there is just a narrow yard called Rotation Office Yard, but by 1906, it has been widened a little, and become New Market Street, reaching Call Lane.
New York Street hasn't been laid out in 1847 either.
Obviously, the Corn Exchange and railway have arrived between the publication of these two maps.
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arry awk
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OK cnosi
yes it's my first entry on the skulls bit but being an OLD(!)
customer of Hill's, the name caught my eye. Was thinking,
(like yer do), the old manager (Mr Noble.I think).or staff,
might even remember the 'nobheads' being in situ before
they absconded to Buz' Lane! Mr N was there 3 years ago
when we bought a dining table and chairs! This was from the
Kirkgate shop.
We bought a 3piece suite at one time and a Kitchen set too, from the Call Lane shop If you send an emissary to see him,he may
be able to throw some light on their backyard changes!
Funny thing,I always thought Call Lane ended at the Duncan St/
Corn ex./New market St. junction!
If I think of anything more on the area, Iwill be in touch!
We don't get to Leeds much,but 'The Skulls Rovers' could be on the
spot in minutes!
Cheers
PS,maybe this should have gone on the previous page?
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cnosni
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Posted:
2685 posts
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| arry awk wrote: |
OK cnosi
yes it's my first entry on the skulls bit but being an OLD(!)
customer of Hill's, the name caught my eye. Was thinking,
(like yer do), the old manager (Mr Noble.I think).or staff,
might even remember the 'nobheads' being in situ before
they absconded to Buz' Lane! Mr N was there 3 years ago
when we bought a dining table and chairs! This was from the
Kirkgate shop.
We bought a 3piece suite at one time and a Kitchen set too, from the Call Lane shop If you send an emissary to see him,he may
be able to throw some light on their backyard changes!
Funny thing,I always thought Call Lane ended at the Duncan St/
Corn ex./New market St. junction!
If I think of anything more on the area, Iwill be in touch!
We don't get to Leeds much,but 'The Skulls Rovers' could be on the
spot in minutes!
Cheers
PS,maybe this should have gone on the previous page? |
Chers Arry,we have already raided (in a friendly way)Hills,the manager and staff let us look around,and Phil got to go in the cellar.
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