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Geordie-exile
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Tyneside
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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I am trying to send the relevant page from the 1894 Directory but I don't seem to be able to add it as an attachment for some reason.
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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651 posts
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Steve Jones
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Wakefield
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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I came across this piece regarding carved skulls in Bradford Cathedral. Maybe It's worth looking into these and comparing them with ours for dates and clues perhaps?
**Bradford Cathedral is full of rich history, from gruesome carved skulls to eleventh century blackened stones, a memory of the former Norman Church built on the site**
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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By coincidence, I'm at Bradford Cathedral tomorrow lunchtime (page-turning for an organ recital!) so I'll have a look around then.
It has struck me that there are virtually no examples of similar carvings to "our" skulls that I've been able to find (particularly two side-by-side, or without the usual cross-bones), which makes me wonder if they were actually carved for a specific purpose rather than being reclaimed from demolished graveyards.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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| drapesy wrote: |
I think its more like this- i.e the back of the pub
The engraver is obviously using a bit of artistic licence - but even so you can see a similarity. Also the Crown and Fleece would have been open at the time so he has called it 'Crown and Fleece' Yard - not strictly incorrect (its the yard at the back of the 'Crown and Fleece' after all) - but 'Crown Court' would have been more accurate.
Incidentally I like the term ' Middle Kirkgate' never heard it before , but it makes sense. presumably 'Lower Kirkgate' describes the area around the parish church whilst 'Upper Kirkgate' is between Vicar Lane and Briggate. |
Yeah, I agree, Drapesy. It looks very similar on the right. The buildings to the left have been entirely rebuilt (early 20th century, going by the liberal use of concrete.) The artist has "opened-up" the view to show both sides of the yard. The end looks open, though?
PS Is Tasa a professional researcher?!!! ;-) Thanks, mate!
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Si
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Otley
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Brandy wrote: |
on closer inspection i think that this picture is eariler than the first one,it looks like this was the pub when it was just the crown.
if you look the sign is missing? |
You may be right that the picture is earlier - but I cant agree that it was when the pub was called just 'the Crown' - that name change took place too long ago (1834 at the latest) for there to be a photo.
If you look at the details in the 2 photos so much is identical(signs, lamps, etc- even the sign advertising the availability of a phone!) I suspect they are of a very similar date to one another. I would even believe that they were taken by the same photographer within minutes of each other. |
I think the two pictures are of a similar date, too, but weren't taken on the same afternoon, unless the two gentlemen took their bench back into the pub whilst the photographer set up his next (very similar) shot!
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Si
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| Geordie-exile wrote: |
Odd. This can't be 'our' Assembly Court can it? Where's this one then?
Picture from Leodis. http://tinyurl.com/4w6f5z |
Wasn't this one on New Briggate?
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Tasa
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| Si wrote: |
PS Is Tasa a professional researcher?!!! ;-) Thanks, mate!
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No, just persistent!
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Si
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Well, thanks for being persistent! Good luck with the page-turning!!
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Im not too sure about the view,but it doesnt look like the same view that you would get if you were stood with your back to the Crown and Fleece and looking down towards Kirkgate and Hills Furnishings |
I dont think that's- what Tasa meant Cnosni.
( another FABULOUS find by the way Tasa - Many thanks) |
No Drapesy,what i was trying to say is that it ISNT the view from the back of the pub looking down towards Kirkgate.
The other view i put forward is the one you mention,hence my pathetic effort at trying to write "pub" on the gable end (see original message).
That picture i posted (with "Pub")following a preceding message stating that i thought the view was from Crown Fisheries/Call Lane looking towards the pub
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cnosni
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Leeds
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| Phill_d wrote: |
I came across this piece regarding carved skulls in Bradford Cathedral. Maybe It's worth looking into these and comparing them with ours for dates and clues perhaps?
**Bradford Cathedral is full of rich history, from gruesome carved skulls to eleventh century blackened stones, a memory of the former Norman Church built on the site** |
Thats worth a visit,fancy a jaunt?
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Tasa wrote: |
By coincidence, I'm at Bradford Cathedral tomorrow lunchtime (page-turning for an organ recital!) so I'll have a look around then.
It has struck me that there are virtually no examples of similar carvings to "our" skulls that I've been able to find (particularly two side-by-side, or without the usual cross-bones), which makes me wonder if they were actually carved for a specific purpose rather than being reclaimed from demolished graveyards.
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Steve Jones came up with the suggestion that they were part of some entrance into the church yard,you will have to forgive me if i dont go back through the milions of pages but perhaps Steve will enlighten us again as to the term
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cnosni
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cnosni
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2685 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Steve Jones wrote: |
I used the historical directories site at:
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.asp
to search the 1894 Whites Dirctory of Leeds and found a couple of interesting things.
Mrs Ann Molineux is the proprietor of the Bay Horse Hotel & restaurant at 97 Briggate whilst Mrs Anna Moleyneux is the proprietor of a lodging house at 69 Call Lane.
Either could qualify as the person who moved into the Crown & Fleece although Ann seems the most likely.
Incidentally considering where the skulls have ended up a certain Mrs J Moleyneux resided at 47 Buslingthorpe Lane! |
I'm not being picky Steve - but can you verify the name spelling -
The sign outside the Bay Horse, which still exists, and the sign on the Crown and Fleece photo bothe spell the name ' Molineaux' - i.e. with an 'a' - is that the spelling you found? |
I think the spelling in the directory isnt that important,its the general construction of the word as its pronounced.
I have some Molyneux,Mollineaux etc in my tree.
The spelling can vary from source to source as the person who compiled the directory is different to the one who produced the signs.
In a nunber of census i have even come across it spelt as "Mulliner"
There is the very strong likelyhood that they are connected Ann and David) as you find other instances of particular families who have a number of establishments eg the Castelow family that had the Duck and Drake (Brougham Arms)and The Palace.
Talking of the Palace is everyone still up for the meet,and if so what time?
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Steve Jones
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The thing i mentioned earlier in this thread was a "Memento mori" literally a reminder of the dead.Very popular in medieval times to remind people of repententing before it is too late.
The most well known is the "dance of Death" with a skeleton/s leading all classes to the grave.
Hicklington churchyard in South Yorkshire had two actuall skulls next to the lych gate till somebody nicked them in thew 1990's!
regarding the spelling hopefully you have now seen the page I finally managed to post yesterday.
I now know that only JPEG's can be uploaded!
I too want to know when and where to meet Sunday as i will be coming in by bus.
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
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2141 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| Im not too sure about the view,but it doesnt look like the same view that you would get if you were stood with your back to the Crown and Fleece and looking down towards Kirkgate and Hills Furnishings |
I dont think that's- what Tasa meant Cnosni.
( another FABULOUS find by the way Tasa - Many thanks) |
No Drapesy,what i was trying to say is that it ISNT the view from the back of the pub looking down towards Kirkgate.
The other view i put forward is the one you mention,hence my pathetic effort at trying to write "pub" on the gable end (see original message).
That picture i posted (with "Pub")following a preceding message stating that i thought the view was from Crown Fisheries/Call Lane looking towards the pub |
Sorry Cnosni - I misunderstood you there - but I think we're agreed that the engraving is showing the back of the pub, not the yard down to kirkgate (i.e where the skulls were of course).
Its a shame that the engraver didnt do a picture of THAT - complete with skulls - now that would have been worth seeing!!!
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
Joined on:
24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2141 posts
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| Steve Jones wrote: |
The thing i mentioned earlier in this thread was a "Memento mori" literally a reminder of the dead.Very popular in medieval times to remind people of repententing before it is too late.
The most well known is the "dance of Death" with a skeleton/s leading all classes to the grave.
Hicklington churchyard in South Yorkshire had two actuall skulls next to the lych gate till somebody nicked them in thew 1990's!
regarding the spelling hopefully you have now seen the page I finally managed to post yesterday.
I now know that only JPEG's can be uploaded!
I too want to know when and where to meet Sunday as i will be coming in by bus. |
I'm going to start a new thread on the meeting - so it doesn't get overlooked in all the stuff on this thread.
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LS1
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Leeds
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23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
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1307 posts
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Bit of an update for you guys...
I managed to get to the council to see what they had there today. Very interesting time I had also, albeit little information gained.
The only thing they have is a report done in the 1990's that is about the first White Cloth Hall. It goes into great detail about the cloth hall and the preservation of it, what is original, what has been modified (very little, and alot in that order!)
In fact there are some pics in book showing the interior. I couldnt get copies unfortunatley as there is only one copy of the book! It is in a very bery bad state indeed. Practially the interior is held up with tons of intricate scaffolding and jacks!
Anyway... seeing as I had the afternoon off I decided to go to the library to satisfy my curiosity, and came up with the attached.
This is an 1886 Insurance map, for.. insurance purposes! It gives probably the best view of the yard i have seen so far.
1. Crown Court and Crown Street seem to be two seperate entitiles by this time. They are both numbered differently, and the Skull building is there, but is a little way from the actual pub itself. The Crown and Fleece is L shaped, and the extra two buildings in the "L" are shown as seperate dwellings, so it looks like in modern times they were knocked through to create one big area.
2. No.s 3 & 5 are showing as dwelling houses rather than businesses, however I did check some of the directories in the library and it suggests that at points from the 1830's to 1901 they were classed as numbered, not numbered, and also had businesses iin them. this may mean that people were working from home.
3. Interestingly as you go into Crown Court, there is a Brew House on the left. Not sure if it was part of the Crown and Fleece though.
I then looked in the directories and tried to establish if Crown Court was listed on its own. In some directories it is, and others it isnt.
Some directories interchange the Crown and fleece with just "Fleece". It is apparent that the numbering at one time increased as you went towards town rather than now where the numbers are lower in town and increase as you go out.
I'm confused now, but the conclusion I have come up with is that the buildings on the other side of Crown Court are not to do with the pub! I need more evidence to prove this, but all the buildings in crown Court are houses and marked "D" for Dwelling.
One last point. If the stables were behind the pub (building on the map with an X for the roof) where did the horses go in and out???
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LS1
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Leeds
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Please someone try to make some sense of that map! I've been looking at it for hours now and it's fried my brain!
One more thing to note. Old maps upto about the mid to late 19th century didnt take into account seperate buildings, and cartographers used to draw them as one blob. Hence why the early maps don't show the crown and the buildings next to it seperately.
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drapesy
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That' map's a fantastic find LS1 - is there any more of it ? I'd love to see 'Fox and Grapes Yard.
It shows that there was a narrow covered alleyway between the pub at no.7 and no 9 that led on to Crown court - where the skulls were, of course.
Re Horses - whilst the narrow covered alleys are obviously out of the question for horses I dont think Crown court is.- (or at least the part from No 1 Crown street to the building where the skulls were)
The picture Tasa found of the old assembly room clearly shows a horse and cart being led down the side of the old assembly room (to the building marked as 'Furniture...' on your map - presumably a warehouse or factory) down a street ( Assembly Street, or Assembly yard?????) which is a similar width to the main part of Crown Court.
Quad erat demonstratum , as Wiggy would probably say.
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chameleon
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
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3606 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
Please someone try to make some sense of that map! I've been looking at it for hours now and it's fried my brain!
One more thing to note. Old maps upto about the mid to late 19th century didnt take into account seperate buildings, and cartographers used to draw them as one blob. Hence why the early maps don't show the crown and the buildings next to it seperately. |
The point you make about the way buildings were shown (as a single entity) is quite valid.
I've referred to the 1850 OS five foot plan already, and that is said to be the first difinitive plan, showing individual buildings through the Township. These were only produced for a limited number of areas, and form the basis of today's plans having been maintained and updated since that time.
Looking at it again, against the map you've found, I'm surprised by the number of alterations in just some 30 years. The three main ones are:
In front of the first dwelling to the right of the Brew House are two small structures which cover most of that frontage - not shown on your map.
The 1850 shows the skulls building to be seperated from the building between it and the pub, with a centre line continuing along from the rear of those two dwellings after the Brew House towards the court yard.
The skulls building is also shown to extend into and include that small building to the right and behind the righthand dwelling shown on your map.
Does all that make sense? Not the easiest to put simply into words!
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LS1
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Good point drapesy, the yard now is narrow, but it would fit a horse down it I guess.
chameleon. I need to dig out my copy of the 1850 map to compare. My brain is tired and turning to mush!
btw drapesy, yes Central Library, 1886 insurance map. fox and Grapes yard is there!
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